1 00:00:00,140 --> 00:00:04,890 all right what was the reason I'm really 2 00:00:02,879 --> 00:00:12,570 honored to have you here at Rhodes with 3 00:00:04,890 --> 00:00:14,190 us well to get started I know that 4 00:00:12,570 --> 00:00:15,269 you've lived in them fists for a very 5 00:00:14,190 --> 00:00:16,830 long time 6 00:00:15,269 --> 00:00:19,289 can you tell me the year you were born 7 00:00:16,830 --> 00:00:22,289 and just a little bit about your 8 00:00:19,289 --> 00:00:29,150 childhood hearing Memphis I was born in 9 00:00:22,289 --> 00:00:35,329 1929 December of 1929 I grew up here and 10 00:00:29,150 --> 00:00:38,989 other four years in the Air Force and 11 00:00:35,329 --> 00:00:44,370 four years away at boarding school I 12 00:00:38,989 --> 00:00:46,620 lived in all those 83 years did you have 13 00:00:44,370 --> 00:00:50,250 brothers and sisters no I have no 14 00:00:46,620 --> 00:00:53,100 brothers and sisters my dad died when I 15 00:00:50,250 --> 00:00:55,860 was 12 years old and after that was just 16 00:00:53,100 --> 00:00:58,320 being my mom okay so you know Memphis 17 00:00:55,860 --> 00:01:00,390 pretty well been pretty well have three 18 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:03,589 papers all through this neighborhood and 19 00:01:00,390 --> 00:01:08,220 so all the Saturday evening folks 20 00:01:03,589 --> 00:01:19,979 all went to Snowden when he don't win 21 00:01:08,220 --> 00:01:21,350 here twice two times Lester at that time 22 00:01:19,979 --> 00:01:25,140 that's right 23 00:01:21,350 --> 00:01:29,250 my daughter came here while she was here 24 00:01:25,140 --> 00:01:32,790 it became roads it was like the students 25 00:01:29,250 --> 00:01:35,000 put a big sign up out there you know 26 00:01:32,790 --> 00:01:37,829 where it says founded and easier today 27 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:45,479 they covered that up and said found it 28 00:01:37,829 --> 00:01:48,270 yesterday and I have that you worked in 29 00:01:45,479 --> 00:01:53,250 insurance so how did you come to work in 30 00:01:48,270 --> 00:01:56,930 insurance well I'm a majored in 31 00:01:53,250 --> 00:01:59,060 international studies here and 32 00:01:56,930 --> 00:02:03,020 I couldn't get a job anywhere in 33 00:01:59,060 --> 00:02:05,350 International Studies Richard we have 34 00:02:03,020 --> 00:02:05,350 that problem 35 00:02:05,380 --> 00:02:13,190 but it's it's it's a good problem except 36 00:02:10,970 --> 00:02:18,740 you got to feed your family and I wanted 37 00:02:13,190 --> 00:02:22,210 to get married so well first first year 38 00:02:18,740 --> 00:02:26,180 out I went to Houston and got a job an 39 00:02:22,210 --> 00:02:31,820 accounting firm but then we knew we were 40 00:02:26,180 --> 00:02:34,430 going back to town started scouting 41 00:02:31,820 --> 00:02:36,620 around for a job and my brother-in-law 42 00:02:34,430 --> 00:02:43,040 was recruiting for our life insurance 43 00:02:36,620 --> 00:02:46,090 company State Mutual Life and how old 44 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:51,050 were you at this at this point 45 00:02:46,090 --> 00:02:53,270 well that was I got married in 90 46 00:02:51,050 --> 00:03:01,730 pitches and this one must have been 1958 47 00:02:53,270 --> 00:03:04,370 okay and so I would have been 28 really 48 00:03:01,730 --> 00:03:10,880 easy to determine my you always subtract 49 00:03:04,370 --> 00:03:12,320 30 from the year and that's it and did 50 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:17,380 you like working in insurance or what 51 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:20,780 was your experience with your job the 52 00:03:17,380 --> 00:03:24,770 first years were really kind of tough in 53 00:03:20,780 --> 00:03:27,110 the insurance business for me but I knew 54 00:03:24,770 --> 00:03:30,050 I was gonna probably wind up being a 55 00:03:27,110 --> 00:03:33,739 Salesman or something then that seemed 56 00:03:30,050 --> 00:03:36,020 like the most opportunity but then I 57 00:03:33,739 --> 00:03:40,340 discovered pension and profit sharing 58 00:03:36,020 --> 00:03:42,769 plans and I started putting in pitching 59 00:03:40,340 --> 00:03:45,709 in private charity most any kind of an 60 00:03:42,769 --> 00:03:47,000 employee benefit plan but mostly pension 61 00:03:45,709 --> 00:03:50,930 in private sharing 62 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:54,800 I really did like that until they 63 00:03:50,930 --> 00:03:56,930 changed the laws and got where I was 64 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:59,240 filling out government forms most of the 65 00:03:56,930 --> 00:04:01,700 time and I really didn't like filling 66 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:06,020 out government forms and that's one that 67 00:04:01,700 --> 00:04:09,680 I quit and started being a full-time 68 00:04:06,020 --> 00:04:14,950 computer consultant okay ready 69 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:14,950 did you work at a specific business no 70 00:04:16,299 --> 00:04:22,790 but by that time I had started farming 71 00:04:19,130 --> 00:04:26,870 that in Mississippi and I had done some 72 00:04:22,790 --> 00:04:29,470 work to help us market to crop better 73 00:04:26,870 --> 00:04:29,470 and 74 00:04:29,890 --> 00:04:34,550 525th wedding anniversary we took a trip 75 00:04:32,990 --> 00:04:39,410 to California 76 00:04:34,550 --> 00:04:43,280 I wanted to way of writing off that trip 77 00:04:39,410 --> 00:04:48,730 so I found a person out there so farming 78 00:04:43,280 --> 00:04:48,730 software and I went to call on her and 79 00:04:49,690 --> 00:04:56,060 she decided she liked my software and 80 00:04:53,020 --> 00:05:00,560 publish it but she said let me tell you 81 00:04:56,060 --> 00:05:05,660 when I'm I'm doing it I wound up being 82 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:13,729 her representative from the luteal to 83 00:05:05,660 --> 00:05:15,260 the Gulf did you have children at that 84 00:05:13,729 --> 00:05:22,160 point or when did you have your first 85 00:05:15,260 --> 00:05:26,470 child our first child was born in 1961 86 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:26,470 and then we had another girl 87 00:05:28,450 --> 00:05:39,590 1964 63 or 64 so are two dollars two 88 00:05:36,380 --> 00:05:43,220 dollars and what are their names oldest 89 00:05:39,590 --> 00:05:48,380 one is a n and the youngest one is made 90 00:05:43,220 --> 00:05:51,290 in your wife's name is Harriet Harriet 91 00:05:48,380 --> 00:05:57,530 I wasn't sure hey there's a life-long 92 00:05:51,290 --> 00:06:00,950 move in - all right well let's talk 93 00:05:57,530 --> 00:06:03,650 about the year of 1968 that month of 94 00:06:00,950 --> 00:06:07,700 February when when the chaos starts and 95 00:06:03,650 --> 00:06:10,130 the garbage workers decide to stop 96 00:06:07,700 --> 00:06:13,010 working do you remember what the city 97 00:06:10,130 --> 00:06:15,710 felt like at that time what how did you 98 00:06:13,010 --> 00:06:18,640 know an awful lot of them tell me 99 00:06:15,710 --> 00:06:21,830 probably more than you right here 100 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:30,200 actually I think for me it probably 101 00:06:21,830 --> 00:06:37,010 started in January it was we were fast 102 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:38,600 approaching February and I had sudden 103 00:06:37,010 --> 00:06:41,450 these pension in private sharing plans 104 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:47,960 they kind of changed the law on me they 105 00:06:41,450 --> 00:06:51,170 they went from a system oh well I wasn't 106 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:54,530 like licensed to do it anymore I thought 107 00:06:51,170 --> 00:07:00,620 and I had to go to Nashville to get 108 00:06:54,530 --> 00:07:03,340 another securities license and when and 109 00:07:00,620 --> 00:07:06,110 took the test and as I was leaving I 110 00:07:03,340 --> 00:07:11,110 decided to stop by and see Dan Matthews 111 00:07:06,110 --> 00:07:11,110 who's who had been our assistant priest 112 00:07:12,369 --> 00:07:21,309 we always have plenty to talk about on 113 00:07:15,439 --> 00:07:21,309 that day he he'd been in a meeting where 114 00:07:23,889 --> 00:07:28,789 they were they were having some kind of 115 00:07:26,479 --> 00:07:31,369 argument in national about whether we're 116 00:07:28,789 --> 00:07:35,419 going to run a half way and he'd been in 117 00:07:31,369 --> 00:07:37,939 a meeting about that and and the long 118 00:07:35,419 --> 00:07:40,759 and short of that was some of the people 119 00:07:37,939 --> 00:07:44,779 in the meeting said well we burned down 120 00:07:40,759 --> 00:07:47,749 our town our part of town the last time 121 00:07:44,779 --> 00:07:49,999 we rioted but this time we're coming out 122 00:07:47,749 --> 00:07:53,449 to your neighborhoods and snipe your 123 00:07:49,999 --> 00:07:56,929 kids in your streets and this who what 124 00:07:53,449 --> 00:07:59,239 group was this was this I should have a 125 00:07:56,929 --> 00:08:05,089 stand that you just happy but I don't 126 00:07:59,239 --> 00:08:12,110 know I know that was Nashville it's just 127 00:08:05,089 --> 00:08:14,349 rage and I had three four hours driving 128 00:08:12,110 --> 00:08:17,029 back to Memphis to think about then a 129 00:08:14,349 --> 00:08:24,499 man I don't know I'm getting my kids 130 00:08:17,029 --> 00:08:26,749 night anywhere think about what to do 131 00:08:24,499 --> 00:08:30,559 about that so it was in Nashville when 132 00:08:26,749 --> 00:08:33,620 you met with we're Dana with Dan and you 133 00:08:30,559 --> 00:08:36,529 know I knew I knew there was a rule for 134 00:08:33,620 --> 00:08:40,339 men born all in Memphis you can feel it 135 00:08:36,529 --> 00:08:42,469 yeah you just I guess I don't know that 136 00:08:40,339 --> 00:08:45,439 we read that in the papers but I knew it 137 00:08:42,469 --> 00:08:48,199 as a salesman I traveled all over the 138 00:08:45,439 --> 00:08:51,500 city every day yeah I just went into 139 00:08:48,199 --> 00:08:54,050 every neighborhood never had a second 140 00:08:51,500 --> 00:08:55,430 thought about that you know it was just 141 00:08:54,050 --> 00:08:58,519 my job I just 142 00:08:55,430 --> 00:09:01,569 I had to go and a lot of industrial 143 00:08:58,519 --> 00:09:01,569 parts of town 144 00:09:01,870 --> 00:09:09,430 and I came back and decided that some 145 00:09:06,130 --> 00:09:10,990 John's sound the John and I taught 146 00:09:09,430 --> 00:09:17,620 Sunday School yeah they're probably 147 00:09:10,990 --> 00:09:22,480 Communion and he talked over what what 148 00:09:17,620 --> 00:09:26,380 you try to do about it and the thing I 149 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:32,080 remember he and this was the time of the 150 00:09:26,380 --> 00:09:35,680 Vietnam War to have to remember that he 151 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:39,820 said you know I've got an employee that 152 00:09:35,680 --> 00:09:43,360 it's just weird because he's going to 153 00:09:39,820 --> 00:09:47,350 the army and he said let me go talk to 154 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:49,810 him about if if we have all this anger 155 00:09:47,350 --> 00:09:54,220 and rage like you talking about 156 00:09:49,810 --> 00:09:57,070 international and and he did and the 157 00:09:54,220 --> 00:10:03,040 thing the takeaway from that meeting was 158 00:09:57,070 --> 00:10:06,130 this guy saying I would just I will be a 159 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:09,160 lot safer in Vietnam that I will be on 160 00:10:06,130 --> 00:10:13,900 the streets of Memphis wait a minute 161 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:16,620 they're shooting at people who said well 162 00:10:13,900 --> 00:10:21,550 they're gonna be shooting at people here 163 00:10:16,620 --> 00:10:24,070 so you know that kind of galvanized us 164 00:10:21,550 --> 00:10:27,400 into action having heard it from two 165 00:10:24,070 --> 00:10:29,140 different places and we decided that we 166 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:32,529 had to try to do something and if we 167 00:10:29,140 --> 00:10:36,630 call some of our friends and I called 168 00:10:32,529 --> 00:10:40,240 John T Fisher and he called Joe war only 169 00:10:36,630 --> 00:10:46,410 and then I guess I called Charlie Trump 170 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:49,529 and that was that was kind of the 171 00:10:46,410 --> 00:10:54,339 essentially here and we started going to 172 00:10:49,529 --> 00:10:57,730 breakfast at the Carousel which was 173 00:10:54,339 --> 00:10:58,680 right there on Walnut Grove as you come 174 00:10:57,730 --> 00:11:03,450 under the bye 175 00:10:58,680 --> 00:11:07,680 make that turn what does that tell me 176 00:11:03,450 --> 00:11:11,550 just about to tell me and there's a 177 00:11:07,680 --> 00:11:13,650 little coffee house in that man and we 178 00:11:11,550 --> 00:11:15,840 go over there and have breakfast and 179 00:11:13,650 --> 00:11:22,410 talk about what we might be able to do 180 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:24,330 about all this and and but that time it 181 00:11:22,410 --> 00:11:27,390 was getting into February and the 182 00:11:24,330 --> 00:11:30,920 situation was really deteriorating so 183 00:11:27,390 --> 00:11:30,920 that's when a guy got killed 184 00:11:37,340 --> 00:11:41,900 why did you feel when you heard that 185 00:11:39,540 --> 00:11:41,900 story 186 00:11:44,330 --> 00:11:54,510 horrible horrible do you remember what 187 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:56,790 the people around you were saying about 188 00:11:54,510 --> 00:11:57,480 the strike and them in those first few 189 00:11:56,790 --> 00:12:00,360 days 190 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:03,570 do you remember what maybe your friends 191 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:07,940 and family was it mostly fear of 192 00:12:03,570 --> 00:12:12,330 violence oh yeah probably all 193 00:12:07,940 --> 00:12:15,000 apprehensive but I guess the thing for 194 00:12:12,330 --> 00:12:17,400 this group we all recognize something 195 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:19,650 really bad was happening to our city and 196 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:24,210 we wanted to try to do something about 197 00:12:19,650 --> 00:12:26,760 it and probably we were more concerned 198 00:12:24,210 --> 00:12:30,900 for the city that we were for the 199 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:34,800 garbage workers we were you know we 200 00:12:30,900 --> 00:12:36,080 wanted to calm things down right right 201 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:39,240 right 202 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:41,510 lots of violence I can be very scary I'm 203 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:41,510 sure 204 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:48,610 so when exactly do you remember when 205 00:12:45,970 --> 00:12:51,580 your group began to meet regularly was 206 00:12:48,610 --> 00:12:55,480 it you know in February yeah it was in 207 00:12:51,580 --> 00:12:57,610 February you remember us if the if the 208 00:12:55,480 --> 00:13:01,210 workers had stopped working when you 209 00:12:57,610 --> 00:13:05,740 guys were meeting or I can't remember 210 00:13:01,210 --> 00:13:08,980 that timeline I do well in fact I've 211 00:13:05,740 --> 00:13:12,760 gone back and looked the definitive work 212 00:13:08,980 --> 00:13:15,430 on this is an oral history by Joan 213 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:17,800 beifuss at the river ice thing and I've 214 00:13:15,430 --> 00:13:19,420 gone back and read in there try to 215 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:22,540 figure that out 216 00:13:19,420 --> 00:13:24,490 all I know is some time around the 1st 217 00:13:22,540 --> 00:13:26,770 of February we started it started 218 00:13:24,490 --> 00:13:28,540 meeting yeah so tell me what you 219 00:13:26,770 --> 00:13:32,110 remember about these meetings I mean 220 00:13:28,540 --> 00:13:40,210 what what was discussed well what were 221 00:13:32,110 --> 00:13:44,590 they like well we're all kind of 222 00:13:40,210 --> 00:13:47,260 action-oriented guys we just you know 223 00:13:44,590 --> 00:13:53,710 trying to come up with what can we do 224 00:13:47,260 --> 00:13:55,870 about this and finally we decided that 225 00:13:53,710 --> 00:13:58,720 the thing we could do was we all knew 226 00:13:55,870 --> 00:14:01,390 Henry Loeb if we would go down we got an 227 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:06,970 appointment and go down and visit with 228 00:14:01,390 --> 00:14:08,950 in there and I had worked in his 229 00:14:06,970 --> 00:14:11,920 campaign since I'd gotten out of the 230 00:14:08,950 --> 00:14:15,760 service and this has been heavily 231 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:17,350 involved just because I like well you 232 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:25,000 know in a political science 233 00:14:17,350 --> 00:14:29,260 international studies kind of guys and 234 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:32,230 so we did we went down there and you 235 00:14:29,260 --> 00:14:34,450 know I have to really describe that 236 00:14:32,230 --> 00:14:41,830 meeting day because different it was 237 00:14:34,450 --> 00:14:47,260 terror first of all when you went in the 238 00:14:41,830 --> 00:14:49,910 room I guess this guy was a cop but he 239 00:14:47,260 --> 00:14:52,340 was a he was so like a bodyguard 240 00:14:49,910 --> 00:14:55,670 and I don't know how the rest of them 241 00:14:52,340 --> 00:14:59,000 felt but I don't know I feel that what 242 00:14:55,670 --> 00:15:02,270 do you need a body go in here with us 243 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:06,500 when you're friends we worked for you 244 00:15:02,270 --> 00:15:08,600 and done stuff for you forever so I I 245 00:15:06,500 --> 00:15:12,460 felt a little strange having this guy 246 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:15,080 kind of sitting over in the corner and 247 00:15:12,460 --> 00:15:20,870 then the other big thing I remember 248 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:25,100 about that meeting was Henry's desk he's 249 00:15:20,870 --> 00:15:28,850 a huge guy but he had a huge desk and it 250 00:15:25,100 --> 00:15:31,130 set up on a little diocese look probably 251 00:15:28,850 --> 00:15:35,390 probably six or eight inches maybe even 252 00:15:31,130 --> 00:15:38,750 foot I don't know I was sitting up and 253 00:15:35,390 --> 00:15:42,350 he had a count only place we that said 254 00:15:38,750 --> 00:15:51,950 I'll make quit the lights just keep 255 00:15:42,350 --> 00:15:55,490 doing no we're still recording they had 256 00:15:51,950 --> 00:15:58,550 this couch in there and we all had to 257 00:15:55,490 --> 00:16:01,580 sit on the couch well i'm i'm accustomed 258 00:15:58,550 --> 00:16:05,120 to being a one-on-one salesman and I 259 00:16:01,580 --> 00:16:08,140 have to I have to I I can't have anybody 260 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:13,640 much farther away than you are right now 261 00:16:08,140 --> 00:16:17,090 to be effective well he was probably at 262 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:20,780 least twice that far for me I mean he 263 00:16:17,090 --> 00:16:24,130 was waiting but and the couch forced you 264 00:16:20,780 --> 00:16:27,350 to sit like this so you know Here I am 265 00:16:24,130 --> 00:16:32,150 settle this guy's something and he's up 266 00:16:27,350 --> 00:16:35,480 above me and yeah it was and finally 267 00:16:32,150 --> 00:16:37,580 finally wound up with with me standing 268 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:40,400 up it is a desk and depending on his 269 00:16:37,580 --> 00:16:40,820 desk and Sam Henry you got to listen to 270 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:45,890 us 271 00:16:40,820 --> 00:16:48,500 you're not listening to us and and he 272 00:16:45,890 --> 00:16:51,860 was saying all the time look it's just a 273 00:16:48,500 --> 00:16:55,120 little late for action I know all those 274 00:16:51,860 --> 00:16:58,380 guys they gonna be back to work if not 275 00:16:55,120 --> 00:17:01,950 the day after it won't be long they'll 276 00:16:58,380 --> 00:17:04,449 be back to work and we kept saying 277 00:17:01,950 --> 00:17:07,589 entering it's going on too long 278 00:17:04,449 --> 00:17:11,050 it's you see so it has to be 279 00:17:07,589 --> 00:17:14,559 mid-february or even a little mobile I 280 00:17:11,050 --> 00:17:19,449 might that's where I get unclear about 281 00:17:14,559 --> 00:17:22,329 the timing on all this and and the long 282 00:17:19,449 --> 00:17:26,250 and short of it we didn't do we 283 00:17:22,329 --> 00:17:30,090 completely struck it out with in Rizzo 284 00:17:26,250 --> 00:17:32,650 and so you know we just say well let's 285 00:17:30,090 --> 00:17:37,390 have breakfast in the morning and talk 286 00:17:32,650 --> 00:17:40,900 about what to do next and we did and 287 00:17:37,390 --> 00:17:43,090 then well we we all agree that that 288 00:17:40,900 --> 00:17:43,900 meeting with dinner was just a total 289 00:17:43,090 --> 00:17:47,470 disaster 290 00:17:43,900 --> 00:17:49,780 we had wasted a lot of time going down 291 00:17:47,470 --> 00:17:52,900 there and messing around with him at 292 00:17:49,780 --> 00:17:55,300 that that one gonna get the job done how 293 00:17:52,900 --> 00:17:57,160 would you have wanted that meaning to go 294 00:17:55,300 --> 00:18:00,250 if you could have had your way what do 295 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:04,929 you call that he would say he would say 296 00:18:00,250 --> 00:18:06,940 I'm getting seven but he didn't seem to 297 00:18:04,929 --> 00:18:09,340 be concerned about it yeah he wasn't 298 00:18:06,940 --> 00:18:12,850 concerned well the other thing you have 299 00:18:09,340 --> 00:18:15,340 to remember he had been I think it was 300 00:18:12,850 --> 00:18:18,460 the Commissioner of Public Works I think 301 00:18:15,340 --> 00:18:21,460 that was the title and all those guys 302 00:18:18,460 --> 00:18:23,800 had worked for him when he before he was 303 00:18:21,460 --> 00:18:25,450 mayor so that's why he kept sin and he 304 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:31,840 knew them and that they'd go back to 305 00:18:25,450 --> 00:18:35,740 work and so you know it was just 306 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:36,210 we made absolutely zero progress with 307 00:18:35,740 --> 00:18:41,050 him 308 00:18:36,210 --> 00:18:43,150 and I don't know who his advisors were 309 00:18:41,050 --> 00:18:45,490 that we're telling you maybe he was just 310 00:18:43,150 --> 00:18:50,320 going on his own but feel for the fine 311 00:18:45,490 --> 00:18:53,110 that it was gonna be all right so we 312 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,720 went on back and breakfast it's carousel 313 00:18:53,110 --> 00:18:57,260 and there's 314 00:18:53,720 --> 00:19:00,380 it said okay what's what's the next move 315 00:18:57,260 --> 00:19:04,100 and somebody said well oh another thing 316 00:19:00,380 --> 00:19:11,890 to do is go meet with the other side and 317 00:19:04,100 --> 00:19:14,980 see what we can do with him and John 318 00:19:11,890 --> 00:19:18,920 knew again they built Kephart 319 00:19:14,980 --> 00:19:20,480 who is the director a little church a 320 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:24,170 little Episcopal Church then and 321 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:28,670 Whitehaven Christ Church Whitehaven name 322 00:19:24,170 --> 00:19:31,790 was Bill Kephart and he he said I get I 323 00:19:28,670 --> 00:19:33,530 know Kephart knows Jim Lawson and said 324 00:19:31,790 --> 00:19:38,950 we'll get Kephart to get us an 325 00:19:33,530 --> 00:19:46,040 appointment with him lost and talking up 326 00:19:38,950 --> 00:19:51,380 so the following Saturday we we went 327 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:56,210 down to that's the name of his start 328 00:19:51,380 --> 00:20:03,650 missionary missionary centenary 329 00:19:56,210 --> 00:20:06,200 Methodist Church I'm not happy and went 330 00:20:03,650 --> 00:20:13,090 down there and he had with him again uh 331 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:17,060 named Audrey Parker and the five of us 332 00:20:13,090 --> 00:20:22,160 the two of them talk seemed like the 333 00:20:17,060 --> 00:20:25,490 better parts there the afternoon and at 334 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:30,410 least we begun to hear about what was 335 00:20:25,490 --> 00:20:32,390 going on the thing that I remembered the 336 00:20:30,410 --> 00:20:37,090 most out of me and then I'll tell you 337 00:20:32,390 --> 00:20:43,760 the thing Charlie remember the most was 338 00:20:37,090 --> 00:20:45,470 when we when we got there him saying you 339 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:47,170 know this whole this whole thing could 340 00:20:45,470 --> 00:20:53,720 have been stopped in the very beginning 341 00:20:47,170 --> 00:20:57,290 if he had just done three things and 342 00:20:53,720 --> 00:21:01,070 we you know that was all kind of news to 343 00:20:57,290 --> 00:21:03,230 us but I've been told that that was 344 00:21:01,070 --> 00:21:07,580 written in the newspapers but I don't 345 00:21:03,230 --> 00:21:09,620 ever remember he said three things that 346 00:21:07,580 --> 00:21:13,070 he said we wouldn't settle for this 347 00:21:09,620 --> 00:21:16,730 night but at the beginning there would 348 00:21:13,070 --> 00:21:19,850 have been no strike said that they had 349 00:21:16,730 --> 00:21:22,460 the workers were asking for a place to 350 00:21:19,850 --> 00:21:24,080 take a shower when they got off the 351 00:21:22,460 --> 00:21:27,470 trucks when they got off from the water 352 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:31,130 and a place to go in and get cleaned up 353 00:21:27,470 --> 00:21:33,560 before they go on that's a big strike 354 00:21:31,130 --> 00:21:35,840 following them that's not a big budget 355 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:38,030 breaker see by that time they were 356 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:41,420 asking for raises and all these things 357 00:21:38,030 --> 00:21:44,870 that Henry kept claiming that the city 358 00:21:41,420 --> 00:21:49,870 didn't have the money to do this you 359 00:21:44,870 --> 00:21:56,000 know some showers that's not a big deal 360 00:21:49,870 --> 00:22:00,080 the second thing they asked for was they 361 00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:02,120 wanted to be able to take them break and 362 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:05,480 go to the bathroom in the morning in the 363 00:22:02,120 --> 00:22:09,650 afternoon and they want any place to do 364 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:11,900 that out on the route say they they 365 00:22:09,650 --> 00:22:14,330 bought no gas from the filling stations 366 00:22:11,900 --> 00:22:17,380 so the filling stations didn't want 367 00:22:14,330 --> 00:22:19,910 coming in and using their bathroom and 368 00:22:17,380 --> 00:22:23,240 you know they wanted some porta-potties 369 00:22:19,910 --> 00:22:28,490 out on the rouse I didn't seem like a 370 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:33,950 backbreaker to me and then the third 371 00:22:28,490 --> 00:22:38,000 thing they wanted was when when it when 372 00:22:33,950 --> 00:22:42,470 it rained they got what was called show 373 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:44,060 up pay if they showed up then weren't 374 00:22:42,470 --> 00:22:47,930 gonna be sent out because he didn't work 375 00:22:44,060 --> 00:22:49,940 in the room they got they got paid show 376 00:22:47,930 --> 00:22:53,320 up pay which I don't know what that was 377 00:22:49,940 --> 00:22:57,440 but it it was not a day's wages it was 378 00:22:53,320 --> 00:23:00,980 some kind of fart baby thing but they 379 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:03,950 let all the white guys stay and work on 380 00:23:00,980 --> 00:23:05,350 the trucks breeze the trucks or service 381 00:23:03,950 --> 00:23:07,930 the trucks 382 00:23:05,350 --> 00:23:10,660 and button no black guys got to do that 383 00:23:07,930 --> 00:23:12,490 and they felt like there was some black 384 00:23:10,660 --> 00:23:16,870 guys that were plenty capable of 385 00:23:12,490 --> 00:23:20,200 servicing those trucks and I couldn't 386 00:23:16,870 --> 00:23:23,350 help but believe that most of those guys 387 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:25,960 had been in the service and held me and 388 00:23:23,350 --> 00:23:30,940 run trucks across Europe and they did 389 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:33,640 what those trucks so you know those seem 390 00:23:30,940 --> 00:23:37,450 like three your brother minor things to 391 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:39,760 cause all this practice in them why I 392 00:23:37,450 --> 00:23:41,010 couldn't I couldn't that have been 393 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:46,560 solved 394 00:23:41,010 --> 00:23:46,560 solo that was a big I don't know from me 395 00:23:46,950 --> 00:23:52,630 but we sat there and listened to Jim 396 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:54,730 Lawson and Audrey Parker talk about all 397 00:23:52,630 --> 00:24:01,510 the things that was going on and of 398 00:23:54,730 --> 00:24:05,400 course falling in them in the truck you 399 00:24:01,510 --> 00:24:09,220 know that came up and just just just 400 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:17,040 cringe to think about how horrible that 401 00:24:09,220 --> 00:24:17,040 must have been then the other big thing 402 00:24:17,100 --> 00:24:26,170 Charlie talked about this for years as 403 00:24:21,930 --> 00:24:28,180 as we were leaving he apologized to Tim 404 00:24:26,170 --> 00:24:32,140 Lawson for taking up so much of his 405 00:24:28,180 --> 00:24:34,300 afternoon saying you know you you're 406 00:24:32,140 --> 00:24:38,530 right in the middle of a major major 407 00:24:34,300 --> 00:24:42,100 event here and you just got no reason to 408 00:24:38,530 --> 00:24:45,280 spend all this time with five guys that 409 00:24:42,100 --> 00:24:48,790 have no authority to kiss any kind we 410 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:53,230 you know we just five guy said I'm 411 00:24:48,790 --> 00:24:56,740 wondering I'm lost and Jim Lawson 412 00:24:53,230 --> 00:25:00,520 sitting on off said I've got plenty of 413 00:24:56,740 --> 00:25:02,240 time for you guys see you are the only 414 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:06,140 white people and have 415 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:09,080 come to talk to us about this and you 416 00:25:06,140 --> 00:25:11,270 think each JB 417 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,870 somebody's got to have more interests in 418 00:25:11,270 --> 00:25:20,330 it than just the five of us 419 00:25:13,870 --> 00:25:25,850 so all those were the you know we tried 420 00:25:20,330 --> 00:25:29,960 to listen and I guess the big takeaway 421 00:25:25,850 --> 00:25:33,470 from that meeting was that somehow out 422 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:38,080 of all that Jim Lawson and John T got to 423 00:25:33,470 --> 00:25:38,080 be really good friends I mean you know 424 00:25:41,620 --> 00:25:49,610 it was their friendship that really 425 00:25:44,330 --> 00:25:51,500 lived do you remember when you were 426 00:25:49,610 --> 00:25:59,030 going to meet loss than if you felt 427 00:25:51,500 --> 00:26:01,520 nervous or uncomfortable did we we we 428 00:25:59,030 --> 00:26:04,160 decide we would go to eat that time 429 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:07,850 Leonard was still opened down that maqam 430 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:10,580 warren bill me and we decided we'd go 431 00:26:07,850 --> 00:26:12,950 eat lunch it and Leonard and kind of 432 00:26:10,580 --> 00:26:16,270 discuss what we're gonna talk about more 433 00:26:12,950 --> 00:26:16,270 go side mm-hmm 434 00:26:21,290 --> 00:26:28,070 you know we concluded that we weren't 435 00:26:25,370 --> 00:26:31,790 going down a derby argument we were 436 00:26:28,070 --> 00:26:37,040 going down and try to listen and hear 437 00:26:31,790 --> 00:26:45,260 what he had to say and he completely 438 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:55,700 charmed us he is quite a safe he came in 439 00:26:45,260 --> 00:26:59,120 preached so you see you remember feeling 440 00:26:55,700 --> 00:27:02,690 a little bit nervous before though oh 441 00:26:59,120 --> 00:27:05,179 yeah that's why we went to dad lunch 442 00:27:02,690 --> 00:27:07,820 together and decide on what we were 443 00:27:05,179 --> 00:27:09,890 gonna do well what changed after the 444 00:27:07,820 --> 00:27:14,030 meeting with Lawson either and how you 445 00:27:09,890 --> 00:27:17,299 felt or well sort of yeah I think and I 446 00:27:14,030 --> 00:27:20,390 don't think I was the only one and Joel 447 00:27:17,299 --> 00:27:23,990 may tell you something different but he 448 00:27:20,390 --> 00:27:26,780 completely changed how I felt about oh I 449 00:27:23,990 --> 00:27:29,410 bet money it changed had John Salman 450 00:27:26,780 --> 00:27:29,410 felt about it 451 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:40,559 well you know we suddenly went from kind 452 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:45,970 of being antagonistic to being 453 00:27:40,559 --> 00:27:49,720 sympathetic it would have been hard not 454 00:27:45,970 --> 00:27:54,940 to have been sent back Jim Lawson is a 455 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:57,039 very powerful guy and so moving forward 456 00:27:54,940 --> 00:28:00,070 did you have different goals after 457 00:27:57,039 --> 00:28:04,389 talking to Lawson or what what changed 458 00:28:00,070 --> 00:28:05,980 it well it wasn't long after that before 459 00:28:04,389 --> 00:28:10,750 dr. King got killed 460 00:28:05,980 --> 00:28:15,039 it's just really shortly so the one 461 00:28:10,750 --> 00:28:19,570 really time - and then after that things 462 00:28:15,039 --> 00:28:22,720 did change rather dramatically that's 463 00:28:19,570 --> 00:28:26,889 when we had that Sunday afternoon 464 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:28,899 meeting in Crump Stadium and why don't 465 00:28:26,889 --> 00:28:31,289 you tell me tell me all about how is 466 00:28:28,899 --> 00:28:31,289 your River 467 00:28:33,659 --> 00:28:42,190 thank you 19 oh I suspect I can't really 468 00:28:38,980 --> 00:28:45,690 remember but I suspect that all they 469 00:28:42,190 --> 00:28:50,460 meant was something done T in Jim Lawson 470 00:28:45,690 --> 00:28:54,519 put together I suspect but the 471 00:28:50,460 --> 00:28:57,669 interesting thing after they was proud 472 00:28:54,519 --> 00:29:00,840 of that time blacks and whites did not 473 00:28:57,669 --> 00:29:08,110 sit down in the same place in the top 474 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:11,380 mark doing so to have a big meeting in 475 00:29:08,110 --> 00:29:16,600 Crump Stadium where both races were 476 00:29:11,380 --> 00:29:18,630 present I think that was a significant 477 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,630 thing 478 00:29:19,419 --> 00:29:26,329 we were nervous about you under that and 479 00:29:25,190 --> 00:29:29,059 what happened do you remember what 480 00:29:26,329 --> 00:29:34,279 happened in that meeting if it was not 481 00:29:29,059 --> 00:29:37,129 exactly a meeting every rally I'm not 482 00:29:34,279 --> 00:29:39,950 sure I'm not sure of a good name for 483 00:29:37,129 --> 00:29:41,749 that but we just always said hands and 484 00:29:39,950 --> 00:29:44,259 then after church we all went to prom 485 00:29:41,749 --> 00:29:44,259 Stadium 486 00:29:44,529 --> 00:29:49,249 speaking of church I know this is a big 487 00:29:46,849 --> 00:29:51,529 part of the story too were you all 488 00:29:49,249 --> 00:29:53,809 connected these men through your church 489 00:29:51,529 --> 00:29:59,479 or what what role did your church play 490 00:29:53,809 --> 00:30:02,179 in this whole story I don't know that 491 00:29:59,479 --> 00:30:03,709 the church played a role directly but 492 00:30:02,179 --> 00:30:06,619 yet it certainly played a role 493 00:30:03,709 --> 00:30:10,059 indirectly we all were Episcopalian 494 00:30:06,619 --> 00:30:14,419 we all had known one another for years 495 00:30:10,059 --> 00:30:16,459 like Charlie and John and John Simon and 496 00:30:14,419 --> 00:30:20,209 I all went to Holy Communion together 497 00:30:16,459 --> 00:30:23,479 and it was when you sat down to say well 498 00:30:20,209 --> 00:30:26,149 who should we get together to be on this 499 00:30:23,479 --> 00:30:29,269 to work on this 500 00:30:26,149 --> 00:30:31,729 we just thought of people we knew well 501 00:30:29,269 --> 00:30:38,029 that wasn't mostly I was all church 502 00:30:31,729 --> 00:30:44,679 friends one other thing after that 503 00:30:38,029 --> 00:30:48,950 meeting with Henry yeah John T was a 504 00:30:44,679 --> 00:30:54,019 good friend Ned cooks and Ned cook was 505 00:30:48,950 --> 00:30:56,779 Henry's best friend and John T said well 506 00:30:54,019 --> 00:31:00,739 you know I've got to go to st. Mary's 507 00:30:56,779 --> 00:31:06,789 board meeting with men and I'll just 508 00:31:00,739 --> 00:31:06,789 talk to him at the board meeting and 509 00:31:10,179 --> 00:31:14,529 I don't know way so I meant that boy 510 00:31:12,219 --> 00:31:18,099 meeting on whether you call him love to 511 00:31:14,529 --> 00:31:22,059 say man you've got to do something about 512 00:31:18,099 --> 00:31:26,439 Henry Henry is not cooperative and he is 513 00:31:22,059 --> 00:31:29,349 not and I think mid kind of blew his top 514 00:31:26,439 --> 00:31:31,679 said man I've been telling that for two 515 00:31:29,349 --> 00:31:31,679 weeks 516 00:31:32,489 --> 00:31:38,109 why do you think he's going to change 517 00:31:34,839 --> 00:31:43,239 now and you know when you don't listen 518 00:31:38,109 --> 00:31:45,129 to what your best friend tells you you 519 00:31:43,239 --> 00:31:47,709 know you're in trouble what what good 520 00:31:45,129 --> 00:31:50,379 will we gonna do we certainly knew him 521 00:31:47,709 --> 00:31:53,979 but we didn't know him like Ned could I 522 00:31:50,379 --> 00:31:58,299 read an in jump off this oral history 523 00:31:53,979 --> 00:32:00,519 she talked about how Loeb had a way of 524 00:31:58,299 --> 00:32:06,189 being able to smile and shake someone's 525 00:32:00,519 --> 00:32:10,349 hand but he still didn't changes well he 526 00:32:06,189 --> 00:32:15,249 was just a great big charming guy and 527 00:32:10,349 --> 00:32:18,099 good smile good handshake why do you 528 00:32:15,249 --> 00:32:20,439 think he acted the way he did during the 529 00:32:18,099 --> 00:32:28,719 strike do you think he was just pinned 530 00:32:20,439 --> 00:32:31,149 in a difficult position you know I don't 531 00:32:28,719 --> 00:32:33,759 really know the answer to that question 532 00:32:31,149 --> 00:32:37,749 but probably you got him hemmed up in a 533 00:32:33,759 --> 00:32:41,769 corner and he was just going to show you 534 00:32:37,749 --> 00:32:44,439 he you couldn't boss him all right but 535 00:32:41,769 --> 00:32:48,239 you know he kept claiming that there was 536 00:32:44,439 --> 00:32:48,239 no money to pay for all this 537 00:32:48,370 --> 00:32:53,200 before so did you agree with that you 538 00:32:51,670 --> 00:32:56,559 know I don't know enough about the city 539 00:32:53,200 --> 00:33:00,580 finances to know that but I knew 540 00:32:56,559 --> 00:33:04,600 something had to be done wherever the 541 00:33:00,580 --> 00:33:06,250 money came from all right tell me about 542 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,590 your friendship with these other four 543 00:33:06,250 --> 00:33:10,510 men I mean did after all this did you 544 00:33:08,590 --> 00:33:18,700 feel closer as a group did you get to 545 00:33:10,510 --> 00:33:21,360 know them better John Simon and I were 546 00:33:18,700 --> 00:33:24,400 really very close friends 547 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:27,730 we talked Sunday School yeah we fished 548 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:32,110 together we we you know we were we were 549 00:33:27,730 --> 00:33:35,800 real close friends so whether it was any 550 00:33:32,110 --> 00:33:37,540 closer afterwards or not I I doubt if it 551 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:41,290 was any closer because I don't know that 552 00:33:37,540 --> 00:33:44,800 it could have been any comes John T I 553 00:33:41,290 --> 00:33:51,160 had known one since we were just young 554 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:55,750 boys and though we didn't see one 555 00:33:51,160 --> 00:34:03,610 another we we we were probably pretty 556 00:33:55,750 --> 00:34:11,770 close after that Joe I hardly knew then 557 00:34:03,610 --> 00:34:14,260 and I hardly know that Charlie crumb we 558 00:34:11,770 --> 00:34:17,530 got to be a whole lot friend of closer 559 00:34:14,260 --> 00:34:21,159 and friend of year but I don't jog for a 560 00:34:17,530 --> 00:34:26,010 long long really knew his wife down down 561 00:34:21,159 --> 00:34:31,750 was in my senior Bible class out here 562 00:34:26,010 --> 00:34:33,820 down had come back to school and she was 563 00:34:31,750 --> 00:34:35,470 in my senior Bible class 564 00:34:33,820 --> 00:34:44,050 you don't even may have seen your Bible 565 00:34:35,470 --> 00:34:49,409 they have probably we did we well we 566 00:34:44,050 --> 00:34:49,409 really got to be close friends they 567 00:34:52,349 --> 00:34:56,079 Charlie is a big wheel in the fiscal 568 00:34:55,569 --> 00:35:01,569 chair 569 00:34:56,079 --> 00:35:06,339 see the funny thing about Charlie oh I 570 00:35:01,569 --> 00:35:10,270 would be invited to being a meeting or 571 00:35:06,339 --> 00:35:13,210 do something and I get to these places 572 00:35:10,270 --> 00:35:18,700 and I wonder wonder why the heck I'm 573 00:35:13,210 --> 00:35:20,500 here why should I be here in this and 574 00:35:18,700 --> 00:35:22,930 then I look around and they had said 575 00:35:20,500 --> 00:35:25,300 Charlie probably and I think you know 576 00:35:22,930 --> 00:35:28,780 Charlie had something to do with this I 577 00:35:25,300 --> 00:35:32,109 think he he'd get invited me to this 578 00:35:28,780 --> 00:35:36,280 time we're going to what it was a church 579 00:35:32,109 --> 00:35:39,119 thing there rotary thing or whatever it 580 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:48,010 was it was something went on in the city 581 00:35:39,119 --> 00:35:49,839 Charlie was free yeah now you mentioned 582 00:35:48,010 --> 00:35:52,650 when I heard you speak at you have been 583 00:35:49,839 --> 00:35:55,869 that your family was probably not too 584 00:35:52,650 --> 00:35:59,730 happy that you were getting involved do 585 00:35:55,869 --> 00:36:03,359 you remember how they reacted do you 586 00:35:59,730 --> 00:36:03,359 have in these meetings 587 00:36:07,550 --> 00:36:17,870 I don't know what it is my family 588 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:20,240 exactly are a lot of my friends weren't 589 00:36:17,870 --> 00:36:23,000 just thrilled to death to know that I 590 00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:25,730 was going down into all these they felt 591 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:28,910 like weird parts of town well they 592 00:36:25,730 --> 00:36:31,130 weren't weird to me because that's I've 593 00:36:28,910 --> 00:36:36,530 made my living going into those parts of 594 00:36:31,130 --> 00:36:39,250 talents or him--so insurance and so I 595 00:36:36,530 --> 00:36:44,470 never thought that that was anything 596 00:36:39,250 --> 00:36:46,330 I suspect I think a one friend in 597 00:36:44,470 --> 00:36:49,660 particular they would just been 598 00:36:46,330 --> 00:36:52,030 horrified to know that I was going down 599 00:36:49,660 --> 00:36:59,619 on Texas Street you probably don't even 600 00:36:52,030 --> 00:37:04,570 know where Texas 3d what we're doing the 601 00:36:59,619 --> 00:37:05,980 same same thing in Northman's when 602 00:37:04,570 --> 00:37:08,590 people heard that you had met with 603 00:37:05,980 --> 00:37:10,960 Lawson do you remember how they reacted 604 00:37:08,590 --> 00:37:12,310 your friends I kind of thought I was 605 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:17,650 crazy right here 606 00:37:12,310 --> 00:37:21,250 how'd that make you feel well I did I'm 607 00:37:17,650 --> 00:37:25,060 not ashamed of it and I'd do it again I 608 00:37:21,250 --> 00:37:28,450 I guess guess my whole thing was this 609 00:37:25,060 --> 00:37:38,470 thing about we getting ready to burn 610 00:37:28,450 --> 00:37:41,650 Memphis down and whatever well let's 611 00:37:38,470 --> 00:37:44,080 talk about the end of the strike in 612 00:37:41,650 --> 00:37:45,730 April with the settlement do you 613 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:49,440 remember feeling how'd you how'd you 614 00:37:45,730 --> 00:37:49,440 feel when things were coming to an inch 615 00:37:50,670 --> 00:38:04,450 really whatever it took somehow we got 616 00:37:55,810 --> 00:38:06,820 there things you know when everybody 617 00:38:04,450 --> 00:38:08,680 tells you all this gloom and doom and 618 00:38:06,820 --> 00:38:11,470 these bad things that the city is going 619 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:13,990 to bankrupt and you know all this bad 620 00:38:11,470 --> 00:38:17,680 stuffs gonna happen and then lo and 621 00:38:13,990 --> 00:38:19,890 behold it didn't happen we settle the 622 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:19,890 strike 623 00:38:22,990 --> 00:38:30,140 when when dr. King was assassinated do 624 00:38:27,410 --> 00:38:33,920 you remember what that felt like being 625 00:38:30,140 --> 00:38:36,290 the city at that time yeah we were those 626 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:38,930 events that you just remember way you 627 00:38:36,290 --> 00:38:40,940 were and what you were doing then we 628 00:38:38,930 --> 00:38:48,860 were on the way over to Fagin John 629 00:38:40,940 --> 00:38:51,170 Salmons house they oh we need to take 630 00:38:48,860 --> 00:38:54,710 yet on home as soon as we could but we 631 00:38:51,170 --> 00:38:56,540 couldn't quit watching the TV long 632 00:38:54,710 --> 00:39:01,040 enough to do that and we all felt like 633 00:38:56,540 --> 00:39:06,920 we all will be there together to see 634 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:10,750 what do you remember the time he spent 635 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:14,060 in Memphis when he was when he had the 636 00:39:10,750 --> 00:39:25,280 big meeting and do you remember hearing 637 00:39:14,060 --> 00:39:37,010 about and it was a pretty fan what 638 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:38,480 friend well after the strike ended and 639 00:39:37,010 --> 00:39:40,550 you did feel so relieved 640 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:42,560 how did how do you think things changed 641 00:39:40,550 --> 00:39:48,220 after that for you I mean did you feel 642 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:53,600 any differently about the city or you 643 00:39:48,220 --> 00:39:57,910 know I think for guys like me just going 644 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:57,910 around trying to make a living every day 645 00:39:59,350 --> 00:40:05,480 you don't make a living too easy when 646 00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:07,970 everything is in a terminal and they get 647 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:13,660 things settle down and well we could all 648 00:40:07,970 --> 00:40:13,660 go back to work it was just a big relief 649 00:40:15,870 --> 00:40:24,160 and as you've grown older throughout 650 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:26,560 your life I mean do you regret getting 651 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:29,200 involved or how do you look back and 652 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:31,960 you're glad that you did or I didn't how 653 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:34,750 do you feel now about it I wouldn't say 654 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:39,220 I look back and say well I'm glad I was 655 00:40:34,750 --> 00:40:44,860 a part of that and particularly with 656 00:40:39,220 --> 00:40:47,530 those guys I feel like we had some some 657 00:40:44,860 --> 00:40:49,810 input into it I don't think it was 658 00:40:47,530 --> 00:40:54,130 anything deeply significant it didn't 659 00:40:49,810 --> 00:41:01,840 settle the striker even higher but it at 660 00:40:54,130 --> 00:41:03,850 least let Henry know where we stood did 661 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:06,610 you keep in contact with those guys and 662 00:41:03,850 --> 00:41:08,710 you still see him around and I see him 663 00:41:06,610 --> 00:41:13,330 wearing nothing but I don't I don't 664 00:41:08,710 --> 00:41:17,230 really well Charlie and and zion.t of 665 00:41:13,330 --> 00:41:23,050 both died just recently in the last year 666 00:41:17,230 --> 00:41:25,240 two years I see Joe occasionally no not 667 00:41:23,050 --> 00:41:27,450 much but I always seek baking time when 668 00:41:25,240 --> 00:41:27,450 there 669 00:41:36,089 --> 00:41:41,249 can you think of anybody else that might 670 00:41:38,430 --> 00:41:43,439 still be around it that is important in 671 00:41:41,249 --> 00:41:47,910 the story or I mean I know we've talked 672 00:41:43,439 --> 00:41:54,239 about Oracle and some in the sound 673 00:41:47,910 --> 00:41:58,499 understand honey thank you need to give 674 00:41:54,239 --> 00:42:03,239 any other people who might you might 675 00:41:58,499 --> 00:42:05,489 know anything about this you know I have 676 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:08,369 often wondered where bill kept our deals 677 00:42:05,489 --> 00:42:11,609 they got it was a fiscal apprec-- I have 678 00:42:08,369 --> 00:42:16,380 no earthly I had that if I've even seen 679 00:42:11,609 --> 00:42:17,759 him since then and certainly you know 680 00:42:16,380 --> 00:42:22,199 I'm trying to talk to Audrey Parker 681 00:42:17,759 --> 00:42:25,920 because he was I don't know where he is 682 00:42:22,199 --> 00:42:28,529 but we had a bookstore for many years 683 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:33,749 down on Spa Park and he owned the liquor 684 00:42:28,529 --> 00:42:35,759 store right on across the street you 685 00:42:33,749 --> 00:42:39,569 know he may have died I don't have any 686 00:42:35,759 --> 00:42:42,749 out of their way you might think Audrey 687 00:42:39,569 --> 00:42:45,479 Parker and then who is the first man you 688 00:42:42,749 --> 00:42:47,939 just mentioned bill kept Horne bill kept 689 00:42:45,479 --> 00:42:53,130 fire he was the Episcopal priest in 690 00:42:47,939 --> 00:42:59,089 Christchurch White Haven he had been in 691 00:42:53,130 --> 00:43:05,299 this diocese and any time I ever 692 00:42:59,089 --> 00:43:12,479 remember I've been to a lot of annual 693 00:43:05,299 --> 00:43:15,509 conventions but all right and you still 694 00:43:12,479 --> 00:43:18,679 attend the same church there bill the 695 00:43:15,509 --> 00:43:21,089 same church every Sunday 696 00:43:18,679 --> 00:43:23,959 your daughter's live in Memphis 697 00:43:21,089 --> 00:43:23,959 no there 698 00:43:25,410 --> 00:43:32,340 in Indiana and Liz and Harbor Michigan 699 00:43:35,130 --> 00:43:40,210 well is there anything else you can 700 00:43:37,270 --> 00:43:44,050 think of from but you might want to tell 701 00:43:40,210 --> 00:43:47,500 me I mean do you have anything of their 702 00:43:44,050 --> 00:43:50,230 walls I would love for mr. Mason to talk 703 00:43:47,500 --> 00:44:02,230 about the intruder that came into his 704 00:43:50,230 --> 00:44:08,320 home right I'm talking about that the 705 00:44:02,230 --> 00:44:13,390 Labor Day of 1968 and let me preface my 706 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:16,720 remarks by saying I have no direct 707 00:44:13,390 --> 00:44:19,990 connection with this incident to the 708 00:44:16,720 --> 00:44:24,040 garbage strike okay though by that time 709 00:44:19,990 --> 00:44:27,130 I'd made a really good friend of a 710 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:34,750 preacher up in North Memphis TM 711 00:44:27,130 --> 00:44:38,920 penderson and he Reverend Henderson and 712 00:44:34,750 --> 00:44:40,570 his wife were always certain that what 713 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:43,590 I'm getting ready to describe had 714 00:44:40,570 --> 00:44:47,860 something to do with the garment strike 715 00:44:43,590 --> 00:44:51,520 I will use the graphic terms that they 716 00:44:47,860 --> 00:44:53,790 used to describe it but I just say that 717 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:53,790 month 718 00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:04,380 on Labor Day weekend and I forgotten 719 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:11,080 what it was probably Saturday night a 720 00:45:04,380 --> 00:45:13,900 guy came in our house and my wife woke 721 00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:20,670 up and said somebody's in here and I 722 00:45:13,900 --> 00:45:24,010 jumped out of bed and by that time 723 00:45:20,670 --> 00:45:25,150 obviously he was a smoker because I 724 00:45:24,010 --> 00:45:27,970 could smell the smoke 725 00:45:25,150 --> 00:45:34,140 I don't know we were smoking in my house 726 00:45:27,970 --> 00:45:37,480 but I'm very sensitive to smoke and I 727 00:45:34,140 --> 00:45:43,690 chased him to the back door he'd even 728 00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:47,770 not be down and all the time I hit him 729 00:45:43,690 --> 00:45:51,580 on the floor kind of found in him he was 730 00:45:47,770 --> 00:45:52,420 digging up on me with a knife and he 731 00:45:51,580 --> 00:45:56,560 stabbed me 732 00:45:52,420 --> 00:45:58,750 well it's inconclusive either seven or 733 00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:02,890 eight times and the reason I say that is 734 00:45:58,750 --> 00:46:07,240 one of them went in and out and I think 735 00:46:02,890 --> 00:46:15,090 the first reports in the paper counted 736 00:46:07,240 --> 00:46:15,090 that is - it's with a knife anyway I 737 00:46:15,150 --> 00:46:20,470 finally jumped up and said get me a 738 00:46:18,250 --> 00:46:25,260 knife here and I'm going yet this guy I 739 00:46:20,470 --> 00:46:25,260 never even really felt these stab wounds 740 00:46:26,550 --> 00:46:36,730 the drillin was flung and when I did 741 00:46:31,900 --> 00:46:39,310 that he ran out the back door and we 742 00:46:36,730 --> 00:46:42,820 think what it probably happened is we 743 00:46:39,310 --> 00:46:45,670 hadn't left the back door unlocked and 744 00:46:42,820 --> 00:46:48,510 he had just come in there was no sign of 745 00:46:45,670 --> 00:46:48,510 any forced entry 746 00:46:51,920 --> 00:47:04,590 and when I looked down and saw was 747 00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:07,080 bleeding I said I don't need to be 748 00:47:04,590 --> 00:47:13,790 bleeding all over this house and I went 749 00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:17,870 and got in the bathtub I said well hey 750 00:47:13,790 --> 00:47:21,390 my friend Pete Ballinger who's an OBGYN 751 00:47:17,870 --> 00:47:23,390 lives just down the street call him and 752 00:47:21,390 --> 00:47:30,450 get him and come over 753 00:47:23,390 --> 00:47:32,670 p-ting I've been in the service yeah he 754 00:47:30,450 --> 00:47:34,800 came on up to my house and he took one 755 00:47:32,670 --> 00:47:38,400 look at me and he said man you need a 756 00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:40,020 real doctor you don't need me so he 757 00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,580 called an ambulance I always thought 758 00:47:40,020 --> 00:47:46,580 that was funny that he didn't consider 759 00:47:41,580 --> 00:47:51,480 being a nobody but a real doctor he did 760 00:47:46,580 --> 00:47:54,090 I still have lunch with him every 761 00:47:51,480 --> 00:48:03,030 Wednesday him I still kidding about not 762 00:47:54,090 --> 00:48:09,240 being a real dog he he would call the 763 00:48:03,030 --> 00:48:13,190 ambulance and call the police and they 764 00:48:09,240 --> 00:48:16,740 sent me on down to the hospital and 765 00:48:13,190 --> 00:48:19,140 Randy Turner had to do it be exploratory 766 00:48:16,740 --> 00:48:21,000 on me because these things were 767 00:48:19,140 --> 00:48:22,480 functioning they are one of them had 768 00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:25,220 gotten me into 769 00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:31,220 and then and look good and they were 770 00:48:25,220 --> 00:48:33,170 afraid that my intestine or injured so 771 00:48:31,220 --> 00:48:35,090 they did this big exploratory and it 772 00:48:33,170 --> 00:48:36,080 turned out that I was not bleeding 773 00:48:35,090 --> 00:48:38,270 internally 774 00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:43,580 you know wound up having a harder time 775 00:48:38,270 --> 00:48:51,430 getting over the the surgeries the knife 776 00:48:43,580 --> 00:48:51,430 wounds and put me only in the hospital 777 00:48:57,330 --> 00:49:07,530 I'm debating whether to tell you one 778 00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:11,250 other little ask I had hit some diarrhea 779 00:49:07,530 --> 00:49:15,540 and before I go to bed at night I take 4 780 00:49:11,250 --> 00:49:17,880 tablespoons of kaopectate and the thing 781 00:49:15,540 --> 00:49:22,430 the doctor said to me when he kept 782 00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:25,530 having me stand up to the horoscope and 783 00:49:22,430 --> 00:49:28,200 the last thing he ever said to me wants 784 00:49:25,530 --> 00:49:31,170 it if you don't get yourself stand don't 785 00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:33,930 take all a damn kaopectate said i kept 786 00:49:31,170 --> 00:49:38,790 kept looking at that index right thank 787 00:49:33,930 --> 00:49:42,980 you you believed in your lane and what a 788 00:49:38,790 --> 00:49:50,310 wife anyway I went on in the hospital 789 00:49:42,980 --> 00:49:52,920 here along here all this it shows you 790 00:49:50,310 --> 00:49:58,830 show you what a racist I really am 791 00:49:52,920 --> 00:50:03,360 I got it in the air and I thought you 792 00:49:58,830 --> 00:50:05,340 know I got to call Henderson goes please 793 00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:10,010 he gonna find out about innocent and 794 00:50:05,340 --> 00:50:10,010 they gonna think he had something to do 795 00:50:12,530 --> 00:50:23,970 you know I got I gotta get him out of 796 00:50:16,590 --> 00:50:26,940 this dissolute so a fact he wasn't in 797 00:50:23,970 --> 00:50:32,750 town he got on to Birmingham or Atlanta 798 00:50:26,940 --> 00:50:36,110 or someplace but I told told his wife 799 00:50:32,750 --> 00:50:42,240 that was in the hospital what happened 800 00:50:36,110 --> 00:50:42,750 and then I read that really made me 801 00:50:42,240 --> 00:50:46,440 nervous 802 00:50:42,750 --> 00:50:51,150 I didn't realize it but I got to 803 00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:54,580 thinking she's got all those kids over 804 00:50:51,150 --> 00:50:56,730 there and 805 00:50:54,580 --> 00:50:59,200 one of those kids could have done this 806 00:50:56,730 --> 00:51:03,550 and then everything did with Henderson 807 00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:07,990 he didn't have but one of those kids 808 00:51:03,550 --> 00:51:09,790 could be involved in this and now that 809 00:51:07,990 --> 00:51:11,380 I've told them where I am 810 00:51:09,790 --> 00:51:17,110 he's gonna come into this hospital at 811 00:51:11,380 --> 00:51:22,240 night and get me and I got really 812 00:51:17,110 --> 00:51:30,130 paranoid so I decided I had to do what I 813 00:51:22,240 --> 00:51:31,990 could to protect myself and the only way 814 00:51:30,130 --> 00:51:37,360 I could figure out to do it was I 815 00:51:31,990 --> 00:51:39,850 reached out with my foot and it was 816 00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:45,730 hurting Ben by that time I had this big 817 00:51:39,850 --> 00:51:48,820 scar Valley instant arrabal next to my 818 00:51:45,730 --> 00:51:50,830 bed I said you know it's their walk in 819 00:51:48,820 --> 00:51:52,840 this room I think I'll bump into that 820 00:51:50,830 --> 00:51:56,080 chair and that's gonna hit the bed and 821 00:51:52,840 --> 00:52:02,260 wake me up you know that would give it 822 00:51:56,080 --> 00:52:06,910 me iPods every hour and so I got the 823 00:52:02,260 --> 00:52:10,150 chair all set and I said I gotta do more 824 00:52:06,910 --> 00:52:13,840 than this I'll reach them 825 00:52:10,150 --> 00:52:23,530 and I got you know it's one of those old 826 00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:26,470 lamps and I pull that up the side of my 827 00:52:23,530 --> 00:52:28,720 bed and I tip that light up to Shannon 828 00:52:26,470 --> 00:52:33,280 right towards them towards the light and 829 00:52:28,720 --> 00:52:36,340 then I got I got sad real zombie it up 830 00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:38,260 sold it I could flip my hand up run it 831 00:52:36,340 --> 00:52:38,830 down that side rail and turn that light 832 00:52:38,260 --> 00:52:42,160 on 833 00:52:38,830 --> 00:52:44,470 I said come in this room I'm gonna blame 834 00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:46,450 them they gonna hit this bed and they 835 00:52:44,470 --> 00:52:52,900 gonna buck wake me up and I'm gonna fly 836 00:52:46,450 --> 00:52:57,790 them so bad I went to sleep and I've 837 00:52:52,900 --> 00:53:02,230 never I've never had another problem but 838 00:52:57,790 --> 00:53:03,980 Megan Megan Harriet it had big-time 839 00:53:02,230 --> 00:53:09,859 problems 840 00:53:03,980 --> 00:53:11,990 they used to on my business trip or 841 00:53:09,859 --> 00:53:15,560 something I'd come home and they'd have 842 00:53:11,990 --> 00:53:21,170 our chairs under the doors you know all 843 00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:23,140 kind of things but they just had mental 844 00:53:21,170 --> 00:53:29,030 problems my older daughter and I never 845 00:53:23,140 --> 00:53:30,980 never had but Meg the younger one she 846 00:53:29,030 --> 00:53:34,850 had walked in when I was sitting in the 847 00:53:30,980 --> 00:53:38,990 tub and we think she saw me bleeding 848 00:53:34,850 --> 00:53:43,010 profusely she that she was too young to 849 00:53:38,990 --> 00:53:47,540 remember that but that's the family 850 00:53:43,010 --> 00:53:50,030 store did that that experience make it 851 00:53:47,540 --> 00:53:51,320 harder for you to become involved in the 852 00:53:50,030 --> 00:53:53,450 Stryker do you think it kind of 853 00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:56,390 motivated well see this was after the 854 00:53:53,450 --> 00:53:59,650 strike oh it was it was in September I 855 00:53:56,390 --> 00:54:06,859 thought it was ascending though 856 00:53:59,650 --> 00:54:10,490 afterwards I had met Henderson was a 857 00:54:06,859 --> 00:54:12,920 friend of mine and was building 858 00:54:10,490 --> 00:54:19,930 apartment house up it up in the 859 00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:24,380 neighborhood this is up on 4th and month 860 00:54:19,930 --> 00:54:31,660 yeah that way go by go by innocence his 861 00:54:24,380 --> 00:54:36,130 son Nelson still has that church and 862 00:54:31,660 --> 00:54:39,850 what was happening to that apartment was 863 00:54:36,130 --> 00:54:43,430 they would work on it in the daytime and 864 00:54:39,850 --> 00:54:45,530 at night time the neighborhood kids 865 00:54:43,430 --> 00:54:48,590 would come in and tell whatever has been 866 00:54:45,530 --> 00:54:50,450 built and he was in one of those places 867 00:54:48,590 --> 00:54:53,330 where he couldn't go forward and he 868 00:54:50,450 --> 00:55:00,830 couldn't go back and all his money 869 00:54:53,330 --> 00:55:03,130 borrowed to build this place and at that 870 00:55:00,830 --> 00:55:03,130 time 871 00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:09,890 Anderson always claimed that on either 872 00:55:06,859 --> 00:55:13,849 side of that place or some apartments 873 00:55:09,890 --> 00:55:16,579 that listen sugar mine on 874 00:55:13,849 --> 00:55:23,119 well that's true or not I don't know but 875 00:55:16,579 --> 00:55:27,259 I guess always for us on to find out but 876 00:55:23,119 --> 00:55:29,029 they were convinced that there was some 877 00:55:27,259 --> 00:55:30,979 more black people building those 878 00:55:29,029 --> 00:55:32,900 apartments and they didn't want they 879 00:55:30,979 --> 00:55:39,140 want those guys building those 880 00:55:32,900 --> 00:55:43,279 apartments and so through all my 881 00:55:39,140 --> 00:55:45,619 connections with the garbage strike I 882 00:55:43,279 --> 00:55:48,559 remember I went to see Billy Kyle's 883 00:55:45,619 --> 00:55:50,479 first and then he sent me to a gap in 884 00:55:48,559 --> 00:55:55,939 the North Memphis and that guy sent me 885 00:55:50,479 --> 00:55:59,209 to see Henderson and Henderson when we 886 00:55:55,939 --> 00:56:01,729 described the project to Henderson 887 00:55:59,209 --> 00:56:06,019 Henderson dis refused to believe that 888 00:56:01,729 --> 00:56:13,039 this friend of mine John Reynolds own 889 00:56:06,019 --> 00:56:16,099 these things and we said what does it 890 00:56:13,039 --> 00:56:20,989 take to convince you that he actually 891 00:56:16,099 --> 00:56:23,799 owns this property and we finally said 892 00:56:20,989 --> 00:56:27,679 well we've got a copy of the deed part 893 00:56:23,799 --> 00:56:29,719 and the and he said no I just need a 894 00:56:27,679 --> 00:56:32,719 piece of paper with his name on it 895 00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:38,239 so when went out to the car and we got 896 00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:41,679 the architectural from drawings and in 897 00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:46,009 own on and it said these apartments are 898 00:56:41,679 --> 00:56:48,170 but John Reynolds that was enough to 899 00:56:46,009 --> 00:56:55,339 satisfy me he said well I'll I'll help 900 00:56:48,170 --> 00:56:58,489 you what should we do and he said well 901 00:56:55,339 --> 00:57:02,739 the first thing is said I believe if a 902 00:56:58,489 --> 00:57:07,170 man I put a sign out front saying 903 00:57:02,739 --> 00:57:10,270 whatever you be gonna do one bedroom two 904 00:57:07,170 --> 00:57:14,020 hundred dollars a month you know be 905 00:57:10,270 --> 00:57:19,359 ready by a certain date and then we'll 906 00:57:14,020 --> 00:57:21,490 have a sign out there my name on a sign 907 00:57:19,359 --> 00:57:23,710 so that the workers wouldn't know just 908 00:57:21,490 --> 00:57:27,520 so everybody in the neighborhood would 909 00:57:23,710 --> 00:57:29,710 know what was going on there was no no 910 00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:34,869 no anything they've even been informed 911 00:57:29,710 --> 00:57:37,270 about what was being built just or you 912 00:57:34,869 --> 00:57:42,420 know almost a courtesy thing want 913 00:57:37,270 --> 00:57:42,420 anything yeah he said the other thing I 914 00:57:43,530 --> 00:57:50,770 said I believe I would ask somebody in 915 00:57:46,869 --> 00:57:58,119 the neighborhood to give that building a 916 00:57:50,770 --> 00:58:00,369 name as one we said well would you 917 00:57:58,119 --> 00:58:06,369 Church be willing to do that he said 918 00:58:00,369 --> 00:58:10,180 we'd be honored to do that so you know a 919 00:58:06,369 --> 00:58:12,580 month later they had they had named it 920 00:58:10,180 --> 00:58:18,160 for a lady that had been one of the 921 00:58:12,580 --> 00:58:20,290 stalwarts of that community so after the 922 00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:25,839 most Sunday's having up they went to 923 00:58:20,290 --> 00:58:31,510 church and it's always interesting he 924 00:58:25,839 --> 00:58:34,240 could then say I don't know anybody 10 925 00:58:31,510 --> 00:58:39,369 down miss Rosie's church rather miss 926 00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:43,150 roses apartment house over here and 927 00:58:39,369 --> 00:58:45,369 everybody knew who she was and until 928 00:58:43,150 --> 00:58:49,690 just recently that sign was still up 929 00:58:45,369 --> 00:58:51,849 there I went up not long ago this I'm 930 00:58:49,690 --> 00:58:56,680 driving down that Street picking fucking 931 00:58:51,849 --> 00:58:59,460 cookie and what they had torn down on 932 00:58:56,680 --> 00:58:59,460 all that stuff 933 00:59:00,150 --> 00:59:08,730 but on Saturday they always go to 934 00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:08,730 barbecue in the yard or cheer was good 935 00:59:10,829 --> 00:59:16,569 you mentioned one other thing when we 936 00:59:14,109 --> 00:59:18,520 were talking before about a possible 937 00:59:16,569 --> 00:59:21,670 connection between mayor Loeb and the 938 00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:24,849 Episcopal Church Oh could you share a 939 00:59:21,670 --> 00:59:29,040 little bit about that well as little as 940 00:59:24,849 --> 00:59:29,040 I know his his wife 941 00:59:29,460 --> 00:59:33,130 you're really getting involved in a lot 942 00:59:31,780 --> 00:59:35,440 of stuff but you're getting you're 943 00:59:33,130 --> 00:59:42,640 getting the southwestern involve America 944 00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:44,890 thing his campaign manager when he ran 945 00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:48,750 from there was a guy named Ross 946 00:59:44,890 --> 00:59:51,640 Pritchard and Ross Pritchard has been my 947 00:59:48,750 --> 00:59:52,329 international studies professor here at 948 00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:55,119 Rhodes 949 00:59:52,329 --> 00:59:58,390 so that's kind of part while I was in 950 00:59:55,119 --> 01:00:01,299 modern art but they went to he they were 951 00:59:58,390 --> 01:00:05,890 both manager great girls with grapes 952 01:00:01,299 --> 01:00:08,170 were there mr. Gradin was the head of 953 01:00:05,890 --> 01:00:13,200 the innocent Clayton officee and they 954 01:00:08,170 --> 01:00:13,200 were big members of st. John's 955 01:00:16,630 --> 01:00:21,690 and I guess that's how I ever got 956 01:00:18,190 --> 01:00:26,590 involved in st. John's but he always 957 01:00:21,690 --> 01:00:30,310 said he went to st. John's but he was a 958 01:00:26,590 --> 01:00:35,650 Jewish guy but I don't know that he ever 959 01:00:30,310 --> 01:00:37,660 I don't know much about his religion 960 01:00:35,650 --> 01:00:41,020 other than he claimed to be a member of 961 01:00:37,660 --> 01:00:43,990 st. John so it all gets back to the 962 01:00:41,020 --> 01:00:51,340 Episcopal Church starting you got in 963 01:00:43,990 --> 01:00:53,200 more trouble than you knew well thank 964 01:00:51,340 --> 01:00:56,550 you so much mr. beast and I really 965 01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:56,550 appreciate you coming to see me today